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Post by Football54 on Sept 16, 2004 21:48:51 GMT -5
Ok, for those of you who have heard of it, there has been a very big controversy in the US about the Pledge of Allegiance. There is a phrase in it that goes "under God" and the atheists want to take it out. I'm not making this a Christian vs. atheist thread, its just a topic of debate.
Any opinions?
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Post by Empress Kitty on Sept 16, 2004 22:20:35 GMT -5
I think we should keep it in. Think of everything we'd have to change if we took it out...Plus, it's just been our motto for a long time, and that's just the way our country. God is what has gotten us throught the tough times. If you don't believe in God, think of it this way: people had faith that God would get them through. It was that faith that kept most going. Without it, we might not live in the same wonderful U.S..
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Post by Smart1 on Sept 17, 2004 2:02:58 GMT -5
Now, I'm not a religious man...(spiritual, yes, religious...not really, maybe someday) but I do think that the phrase 'under God' should be kept. Like you said, EK, it's been out motto for a long time, and even though I'm not a religious man, I can still say that this is a nation under God. I wish I had something smart to say right here, but I don't... Let's just pretend that I said something really, really smart concerning this topic, though! ;D
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De Rigueur
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Post by De Rigueur on Sept 17, 2004 2:07:51 GMT -5
hey yall. i havent been posting often lately so i apologize for that.
any whoo i think that part should be taken out. there r a lot of people out there who do not believ in God. Y should they have to say under God if they don't believe that it realy is under God? if they don't think its under God, then how can they say 'one nation under God' and mean it? simple explanation------------they can't. they shouldn't be forced to.
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Post by Empress Kitty on Sept 17, 2004 9:29:18 GMT -5
Now, I'm not a religious man...even though I'm not a religious man, I can still say that this is a nation under God. You're not a man at all! You have to wait until you're 18! ;D
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RockinRole
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Post by RockinRole on Sept 18, 2004 17:05:42 GMT -5
any whoo i think that part should be taken out. there r a lot of people out there who do not believ in God. Y should they have to say under God if they don't believe that it realy is under God? if they don't think its under God, then how can they say 'one nation under God' and mean it? simple explanation------------they can't. they shouldn't be forced to. Well this country is based off the faith that we have for God. if we did change the Pledge of Allegiance, we would also have to change the constitution, and all of it. Everything this country is based on is God. Your right, if you don't want to say it don't say it, but just because they want to ammend this consititution, and this pledge, does not give them a right to change our beliefs. Don't forget that people came here for freedom. Freedom od speech, and lets not forget the Freedom of Religion. I know that most people that came to America was escaping from the religous persecution they had against them. The founders of this constitution beleived in God. To change this countries original beliefs and this Pledge, this constitution is unconstitutional. Well i could go on forever, but my fingers won't allow it.
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Post by tanmanpursley73 on Sept 19, 2004 18:04:48 GMT -5
hey yall. i havent been posting often lately so i apologize for that. any whoo i think that part should be taken out. there r a lot of people out there who do not believ in God. Y should they have to say under God if they don't believe that it realy is under God? if they don't think its under God, then how can they say 'one nation under God' and mean it? simple explanation------------they can't. they shouldn't be forced to. ok thats cool that people have that opinion but there is a big problem with that its what if there is a god hmmm? well if we took out that in the pledge and changed the constitution then i bet that would get him really pissed off and i know that wouldnt be smart not only that but is it hurting u to say that? u may not believe it but u dont need to try and change a nations pledge cuz u dont completely believe in everything it says
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Post by Football54 on Sept 20, 2004 12:58:27 GMT -5
I cannot believe this new low our government has reached. Yes it says in the pledge “one nation, under God…” And this nation was founded by Christians who put it in there. If you seriously and honestly have a problem with that part of the pledge and it offends you (I mean, heaven forbid someone in this world could have some maturity and put up with something), don't say it; otherwise, please leave it in there for us. I know people who don't believe in God like I do but I respect that and leave them be. If we can sell music about drugs and murder and rape and criminal activities, surely you won't mind a little phrase that says "under God" in the pledge. This is honestly sickening to me that this is even being considered. I hope that people will realize how silly they are concerning themselves with something as trivial as this that should be left alone when we could be discussing better things in congress. Ah yes, here it is in the BILL OF RIGHTS!!! It says here we have our freedom or religion and isn't that what “you are TAKING from us”. ”Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” Notice this is a restriction on the government, no the people. Just a little thought from me.
And by the way, I am in no way criticizing anyone or their beliefs; I am merely posting an opinion. If anyone has a problem or gets offended, please be mature enough to approach me or whoever professionally and not freak out.
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De Rigueur
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Post by De Rigueur on Sept 21, 2004 1:16:49 GMT -5
Exactly, football54. We have freedom of religion, so if people like me, who don't have a religion, why should THEY be the ones to accomodate to the people who DO have a religion? it juss doesnt seem rite that we should have to have that in the pledge. ya, i kno, u guys are going to tell me that i dont HAVE to say that part in the pledge, i mean heck, i dont have to say the pledge at all. but the thing is, i love my country, and i want to say the pledge. i want to say it every day in scool. the pledge is, in a way, a part of me. i love my country to bits and pieces, but i dont believ in God, and i dont believ that i should be forced to say 'one nation under God' if i dont believ that it is a nation under God. i kno, now you're just goin to tell me to just not say that part, but it's the princibol of it, really. i want to say the whole pledge, i love my country, so when i say the pledge, i want to be able to say the whole thing thru w/o feeling uncomfortble saying it. and sayin 'one nation under God' makes me feel weird because i just simply dont believ that this is a nation under God.
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Post by Football54 on Sept 23, 2004 13:04:06 GMT -5
Excellently put De Rigueur.
This debate is a hard one becaues it can go so many ways. We say take out the pledge because it "forces" atheists to say something they don't believe. Then, we say leave it because people who believe in a deity or all powerful being outnumber the atheists something like 4-1, and that we should look at it like an election, going with the majority. The fact remains that every side will look on the other with contempt as if they are taking something from them. This is an extremely hard issue to look at both sides but it has to be done. I honestly think that we shouldn't take away from the majority of the nation for a small minority. I am, however, going to remain unopinionated in this part from here on out.
I am still, however, for leaving it in there for other reasons, not because I'm a Christian and I'm going to force it on everyone but because governmental control over what we can or cannot say should be a clear alarm to you, whether you are atheist or not. The real argument here is not about the pledge, but the first amendment itself. The context of the constitution is clear. If there is a to be a "wall of seperation", the that wall is to be one directional only. The government cannot invade, create, or deny anything of a religious nature. As a founding father said "If we do not stand together we shall most surely hang seperately!" and "those who give up freedoms and liberties for temporal security deserve neither." For 150 years, the government held to this simple imterpretation of the "wall." Any mention of "The Separation of Church and State" was negligible and held no more meaning than the Government had no authority in these matters. It is a fact that until 1947, the Courts, the Executive and the Congress were neutral as regards religious expression. And that is precisely where the Government should be. No questions asked.
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Post by Phoxx_Lady on Sept 23, 2004 20:49:21 GMT -5
KEEP IT!! that like a no brainer! there are like way more people that belive in god then there atheists. and i think they can always trust in god because of the consept of him and just that we are supreme above all EXEPT god. ya thats what i think me and my bro here.
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De Rigueur
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Post by De Rigueur on Sept 26, 2004 3:40:38 GMT -5
Uh...okay, Phoxx_Lady...great debate ideas in that there post of yours... Hm...football54, man, ya, you've kinda changed my mind with that post. But...I still can't help but think it should be taken out. i mean, like ya said "The government cannot invade, create, or deny anything of a religious nature". i guess that 'one nation under God' isn't all TOO religious, but i think that it is in a way. and...i guess that it's kinda hard to debate my point, because everything i think of inflicts with 'or deny anything of a religious nature'. however, there is the ' the government cannot invade...of a religious nature' part. if they can't invade anything of a religious nature, then why do they even mention God in the pledge in the first place? they shouldn't make any referance towards God since it has to do with religion (in a way). n since the government can't invade anything in a religious nature, it shouldn't hav been added in the first place. (that is...if i have the meaning of "The government cannot invade, create, or deny anything of a religious nature" correct...which i may not, if i dont, please feel free to correct me what confuses me is, WHY would anyone feel the need to have it in? (sorry if that came off rude, i didn't mean it to) i mean, if you believ in God, i'm not trying to stop you, go right ahead...but...why do you think that everyone should be forced to say 'one nation under God' if they don't believ in God? it kinda makes it sound like you're trying to force non-believers to believe. i guess that its that then wed have to change all of our bills, etc, etc...but then again, what's wrong with change? i mean, they tried to change the one dollar bills to coins, so why can't they continue to make new bills? its not like it would be that hard. i mean, there have like--HOW many new 20 dollar bills within the past few years??!!? ;D lol haha...yah...sorry...just trying to keep this heated debate light-hearted.
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Post by Football54 on Sept 26, 2004 20:09:34 GMT -5
it was changed in 1954 by President Eisenhower pretty much so that we'd be totally different than the soviet union. Big political move back then, not religious. That was the intent I think. And ya Phoxx_Lady, i'd have to agree with De Rigueur, excellent post. Really made me rethink my ways.
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tanyahead
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Post by tanyahead on Sept 29, 2004 4:34:56 GMT -5
I used to really care about this topic, but I've gotten over it. I'm not religious and I don't believe in a 'god' or 'goddess'. I just don't say it anymore. i'll stand and look at the t.v. not the flag. i like t.v. if people dont want to say it , don't. they can NOT make us recite stuff if we don't want to. unless we are korean and in n. korea. their dictator is EVIL! they make them write over 10000 songs about loving him!! HOW RETARDED AND STUPID HE IS! I think he should die.
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Post by tanmanpursley73 on Oct 1, 2004 0:26:25 GMT -5
tanya u r very smart i think that is a good way to look at the pledge if u dont believe then just dont say it its as simple as that
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